Presence in multiple leagues

[Immortal… Larry]

(I should consider an alternate career as novelist, just realized it’s become big again… Sorry!)

@mvnla2, @renitz, your thinking has merit… Let me add my thinking to this as well.

I’ll start by explaining that I am an IT infrastructure designer, specialized in highly complex infrastructures, like Rovio’s. Just making clear that I have some background knowledge. I will try to explain in simple terms how this system should work from my point of view. It may get a bit technical. If you like to have clarifications on anything at all, let me know and I’ll do my utmost best to explain it better.

Here are the technical basics for the arena scoring:
There is likely to be only a single database, or 2 databases with one containing scores and one containing score boards. All this data would be spread over multiple servers and replicated real-time (clustered). If not, then Rovio needs to give me a call asap and let me do a thorough job on their central infrastructure. (Rovio, you can drop me a message in ABN! :)

Also, database systems don’t synchronize or manipulate information within the database. An application is needed for that. In this case the server-based application for managing these databases and all clients (your device). All that any database system will do is store information within a table. If multiple boards show the same information then normally they are all linked to the same field in the same table.

For anyone not following me, just pretend we’re talking about an excel sheet with my personal score at field “B1” on Sheet1. Another tab contains a score board with my name and one field containing the formula “=Sheet1!B1”. If my identity is also present on another board, it will also contain the formula “=Sheet1!B1”. This explains the identical scores.

What I have seen so far is that the client has control over the scores, shown scoreboards and accounts. The only purpose of Rovio’s servers is storage and sharing (scores attached to a league and cloud saves).

On to the boards. What would *normally* happen is that the client syncs the final ending week’s scores and checks the board. You then claim the prize and by doing so, you request the new board from the server. This board will have a code, so let’s give it the random number 172. See this as a tab or sheet in excel, which contains the identities of players assigned to the same board. Your device will now use this number to show you the information present on tab 172. Your scores are not replicated to the board, but only to the field “Sheet1!B1” of the Excel example.

In brief, all the scoreboard does is show 15 people with their scores, which are stored in a different table or database.

So far the infrastructure.

Now, here comes the thing. In a properly designed PvP system, everyone displayed on board number 172 should see board 172. We have now proven that this is not necessarily the case.

What clearly happens is that the server-side application assigns the same identities to multiple boards. I really don’t see how a client device could make that happen in any properly designed system. Then again, as said, Rovio has defied logic on many occasions and has done some very sloppy work so far with fixes and updates. This may indicate an overly complex system which really should be simple. (again Rovio, drop me a message!!! :)

Here comes my conspiracy theory… What if the boards are filled by design within a certain amount of time (let’s say 10 minutes) to let’s say a minimum of 12 players. It would make sense that a developer doesn’t want empty leagues (part of the experiment we ran with the ABN leagues!).

Simply filling it up with random players from other boards could seem logical to a sloppy, lazy or inexperienced developer.

Then he/she considers the possibility that people could find out that they are not actually competing with other people in the same league. he/she figures that the best way to deal with that is to make sure people will never find out in the first place.

How?

By making sure that boards don’t include anyone from the associated friend list.

With the amount of players worldwide, the odds are incredibly slim that anyone would find out. Even in ABN, people have found out about it 2 months ago and we all thought it was just coincidence. It wasn’t until this week we started adding it all up because we were sharing boards with cheaters…

The only real bugs are:
Apparently sometimes people get promoted/demoted based on the wrong boards.
The player’s duplicate locations seems to be leading their own lives (based on pro/demotions).

@mvnla2, I sure hope I’m wrong and your reasoning is right and it’s all accidental. I much prefer sloppy design over consciously fooling dedicated players…

[MVNLA2]

@larry — Enjoyed you novel. : D

[Snarky]

@larry – ditto @mvlna2’s comment!
What you presented makes sense to my “laymen’s intellect”; I just filter all of Rovio’s responses from the perspective that they are ultimately greedy and care about their profits more than our experience… sad, as they could easily sort both out if they stopped trying to create so many new products and focused on getting one properly configured.
Cheers, the Snarkster

[Immortal… Larry]

Holy motherf*****

They are reading the nest! Why? Because I started last week’s league immediately when it began, without delay! This should NOT have happened and it is by design!

Rovio Support Team, Mar 5, 01:25:
Hey,
this happens occasionally when you start playing the league when there aren’t many players around your level playing at the same time.
It’s a fallback method of building the leaderboard.
Best regards,
Niklas
Rovio Support Team

[Angry Johnny]

They are reading the nest!

Yes they are. Sometimes even Rovio staff posts in ABN.

However before someone says “then why do they not fix [issue here] when we post about it” it is important to understand that none of what are posted here are official support submissions to Rovio so even though we have information about problems there still have to be a support ticket about it at Rovio for them to officially acknowledge the issues and do something about it.
They are under no obligation to read ABN so they can fix issues and problems that we post about, if they do (and no support ticket have been submitted) it should only be considered a bonus.

[MysticBurn]

Ha the nest has been infiltrated, new thread? Find the mole, hahaha lol.

@angryjohnny Ok they don’t have to act on (every) the post they read, understand that, for me also shows they have no involvement for there products and they people who play it especially when its was clear how much disappointment and irritation the cheating has caused. Now it seems also amplified by there board filling method.

@larry Very flawed fallback method if you ask me, when it causes players from higher leagues ending up in lower leagues (because there are different rewards on the wheel now), or influence the board (competitive vs just for fun player)

[Immortal… Larry]

@renitz, As said in my novel above, I think that issue is the actual bug. I think that once the boards are filled with “alien” entities, somehow these entries start leading their own lives based on promotions and demotions to the boards they’re placed on.

And to Rovio, read this as well then:
THIS IS BAD!!!!! If you are concerned with cheating, this is worse than cheating. The whole point of any type of match is that you’re playing on the same field. Being able to challenge your opponents with your scores and all climbing together is what any match should be about.

The way this arena is set up does not qualify as any sort of competition. Change it or pull it. That’s my request and sincere advice. Stop this fraudulent charade.

[MysticBurn]

@larry Was interesting read! So, fixable?? before end of arena, hahaha think not. So my plan playing week 13 to get in diamond, not interested anymore, if I have to wonder if the people on the board are really there or not or even from diamond league. Like now just do objectives to stay in platinum. Also getting platinum or diamond avatar frame as end prize, not really an encouragement to play more in arena at the moment for me.

[KerrAvon]

@larry and others Since we actually have 2 players on the leaderboards of multiple Nesters in the current round, we probably should try to keep track of the scores of these players, see how well they correlate and see if we can learn anything else.

Could the following Nesters please collect and post daily screen captures of their leaderboards featuring the following players?

Player “911”
Nesters are @renitz, platinum league and @mimi27, platinum league.

Player “vitaly98”
Nesters are @renitz, platinum league and @eric-santoso-180, silver league.

Just take a screen capture at whatever time is suitable for you. It’s probably going to be difficult to co-ordinate exact timing, so we’ll just have to work out the order of the screen captures as best we can.

[MysticBurn]

@kerravon Actually three players, m1kel24 is also @mingkee27 diamond board (if recent screen shot in Join the Birdsnest Arena leagues! thread) and @eric-santoso-180 silver board.

[KerrAvon]

Thanks for pointing that out @renitz So if we continue from the previous post.

Player “M1kel24”
Nesters are @eric-santoso-180, silver league and @mingkee27, diamond league.

[Immortal… Larry]

@renitz, definitely fixable. Here are the suggested changes to the Arena system (in case Rovio continues checking this):

1- Pull out the check against the fb list. You should not mind people having friends in their leagues.
2- Pull out the feature which duplicates identities. This is completely unnecessary.
3- Disable the time during which a board accepts new enrollments (people signing onto the board).
4- Change the parallel filling of the boards to serial.
There are multiple boards open at the same time which are filled on parallel. This should be changed to serial. The result would be that the very last board could potentially get smaller, but that would be only one. The rest of the boards are filled up all the way to 15 contestants.
5- Deny enrollment into the league after 3 or 4 days, except for the wood league. This is to prevent signing up a few hours before the end of the league to get an empty league.

Yes, it’s a thorough re-visioning of the arena set-up, but at least this way it is fair. It also means that starting later would get you into leagues with others who have started later.

I sincerely hope that someone at Rovio will pick up on this.

[Immortal… Larry]

For anyone interested, here’s the discussion with Rovio Support.

Larry, Today at 14:31
So, contrary to your earlier reply, this is by design!

THIS IS BAD!!!!!

You guys don’t even comprehend how bad this is.

If you are concerned with cheating, this is worse than cheating. The whole point of any type of match is that you’re playing on the same field. Being able to challenge your opponents with your scores and all climbing together is what any normal match is about.

The way this arena is set up does not qualify as any sort of competition. Change it or pull it. That’s my request and sincere advice.

Stop this fraudulent charade.

Shame on you.

This is what they replied:

Rovio Support Team, Today at 14:40
Hey Larry,

like I said this is a fallback system when the game can’t find players to fill up the leaderboard.

This is not happening all the time to everyone, it’s just a backup.

Best regards,

Niklas
Rovio Support Team

[MysticBurn]

Aah well then in eric-santoso-180 silver league, 13 players (not confirmed doubles) just have to be content playing for 3rd place only, since M1kel24 has 171.780 points and Vitaly98 (currently second in my platinum) 49550 points, so both probably 1st and 2nd. Put your hands together for rovio, bravo, good job, but he stick to excuse that it doesn’t happen that often. just a backup.

Edit add on: How many people are really comparing, looking out for double on leaderboards at the moment, seeing the responses so far 10-20? at best. Yet already three players on double boards.
How many nesters are there, any one with statistics major?

[t_russell]

I’m trying to formulate an intelligent reply to everything I have read here in the last couple of days and find myself at a loss for words. To borrow from Avenged Sevenfold “An EPIC of Time Wasted”.

[MVNLA2]

@larry @all — Yes, Rovio does sometimes read ABN, and sometimes people even post. There are a few Rovio employees who are even members, although they try to stay invisible. The time they are most likely to pay attention is right after a new game or new update has been released. Given the serious problems with Epic, it is not surprising that they are paying attention.

@BirdLeader @Amslimfordy — Have you contacted Rovio about the problem of players appearing in multiple leagues and sometimes “competing” in a lower league when they are actually in a higher league?
Hmm — Think it’s time to pester Peter again. : D

[Bubbley]

@larry @mvnla2 I haven’t added my boards this week but I will put them in my album so players can check for duplicates. The lead player is cheating a little. Just adding an extra objective when he feels threatened.

When @dallasreds was in my league I was in diamond but he saw himself in platinum and competed in that league. I don’t know what his final score was in platinum but I have it for diamond if it’s of any use.

[Loganimol]

This is crazy… I haven’t noticed anything like this with people in my leagues, though I am only in Stone, having got some objectives last week I couldn’t do because I lacked the right bird classes. If I notice any strange scores I will be sure to post the screenshots of my leaderboard.

[FreckledPig147]

Seeing this issue gives me questions:

Why does this happen?
What is the purpose of this mechanic?
Who is responsible for this? (Duh. Rovio!)
When did this actually start, after the update or right at the beginning of PvP???
Where was this idea actually found?? (Doesn’t make any sense)
How come this isn’t even fixed yet???

I guess Rovio gave it a cheap (and floppy) design so all they care is the LC people buy because of cheaters and whatnot.

[Mimi27]

Soon after the new objectives on March 5:

[Immortal… Larry]

@freckledpig147,

1- Why does this happen? – Rovio states this is a backup mechanism in case the servers are not functioning properly. My response to this is bullshit. If you can assign duplicate players, you can also assign new players.
2- What is the purpose of this mechanic? – A backup mechanism. Again, BS.
3- Who is responsible for this? (Duh. Rovio!) – Yes, Rovio developers. Clearly support staff are also unaware of this (see their response in this thread)
4- When did this actually start, after the update or right at the beginning of PvP??? The first confirmed case was in january, so it is safe to say that this was part of the initial PvP design.
5- Where was this idea actually found?? (Doesn’t make any sense) – This was found because people started posting boards with cheaters on them. Some nesters noticed that names and scores appeared on the wrong boards. First only a few, but this week it became obvious that this was not a coincidence anymore. We started digging and found out what is going on.
6- How come this isn’t even fixed yet??? Good question, especially considering the ramifications of this. The PvP arena has nothing to do with PvP. You simply cannot know if you’re playing on the same field. Based on their response, Rovio seems to have no interest at all in creating a fair contest for the PvP arena. Even though it is not complicated to do so.

[MysticBurn]

@mimi27 My board with 911 roughly nine hours later.

[MysticBurn]

Here my complete board incl vitaly98, 911, for today i’m finished with arena just doing objectives.

[Mimi27]

March 6 3:00 pm PST.

[FreckledPig147]

@larry Thanks for the answers! XD I agree that whatever answer Rovio would give me if I were to ask them for Q. 1-2, it would be nothing but b*******! For question 5, I actually meant how did Rovio come up with such a silly “method” as a “backup mechanism” or whatever. Surely they could find a way to make the PvP less broken than that…
By the way, my level is 22, hardly anyone should be able to find duplicates in my leaderboards. :P