The State of Valiant Banner Set

[Sailus]

With the new update valiant banner set changed.

Its with 65% chance of reduce the revival.

Btw I don’t know why it won’t let me reply on there.

Topic

[JJAtelier]

For a moment i thought you resurrected my thread from the grave. Would have appreciated if this was named “part 2” but whatever….

The Valiant set is still strong as ever. Fact of the matter is…. the probability scaling is still reasonably high to warrant its viability in a competitive environment. Not only does this still make it somewhat frustrating (due to RNG), but it still dilutes the power level of the other banners set since it’s still at the top of the food chain especially since… There’s no way *hint hint* of interacting against that pesky pig squire.

[GrauGeist]

One set must always be “best”, that’s the nature of having things to choose from. Dropping effectiveness from 100% to 65% is a big deal, because RNG means 10% of the time, you’ll have 2 birds waiting 3 instead of 2. Valiant is still good, and that’s fine.

Even at 100% it was fine, because everybody was chasing the same set. It actually balanced things.

[Pointless]

Balanced in terms of everyone being more or less the same. Defeats the purpose of creating all the different sets, however, as does Shard Enhancement, as unless you are willing to spend RW$ (or, ahem, “acquire” LCs some other way), most are unable to field multiple configurations and still remain competitive at the higher levels. Just rolled and completed Angry and Linked in the last couple days, but doubt I will use them as they simply don’t compare to my upgraded Valiant (nerfed as it is).

[Ryogo Kusama]

Actually I think Angry Set is a very good Valiant counter, since you need to nuke the banner as fast as possible.
I’ve been using the Blazing Eye Set since Season 1 and I didn’t feel the need to change set until Valiant was introduced… even with the insane chili regen I had, if I did lose the coin toss, it was very hard to make a comeback against a non-nerfed Valiant Set.
Since I’ve been using the Angry Set instead, it felt easier to wipe out Valiant user (even with a lost coin toss) and now that it’s been nerfed a little, it’s even better.

Still, I think that nerfing the Valiant proc chance from 100% to 65% doesn’t make that much of a difference… Mana Set is 60%~ too and everyone is still using it, there is no reason not to given the huge advantage it gives.
Valiant is still the best against any non Valiant and it’s just a little bit weaker now against other Valiant users, since RNG is a big factor… but again, it’s like Time Jump/Resurrection Emblem discussions all over again, where people with the same set facing each other may be screwed up by RNG procs and of course have different feelings about the results.

[Pointless]

Yup, nature of the game…we all rely on RNG to an extent (some, like me, way more than others). There is really no way to field a team without such reliance, due to all the Critical/AoE and counter items out there. The closest we had was Venomous…and then came Mana. Even an Angry banner, although set at a specific health threshold, is reliant on RNG simply due to the neeeded damage dealt.

[GrauGeist]

Having a “chase” Set is better business.

Also, AOEs were nerfed by Frost + TBird.

[JJAtelier]

I’m happy I made a half baked prediction of what nerf they would do to haul the Valiant set back in line. Though if new content such as this continue to make players decide that….

“Would I rather have this Banner set than what the Valiant currently offers?”

If everyone is still simply “all sets < Valiant” then that’s a huge issue for the longevity of a game.

I can understand maybe they didn’t want to nerf Valiant as hard as players wanted as it would devalue the enchantments players invested. But some form of “interaction” against that Piggy squire would make the banner set so much more healthy for the Arena format instead of having that lingering dread of rolling the dice everytime you k/o a bird.

[Pointless]

@vinnieb00 what you suggest is an extension of what @graugeist (and myself to an extent) have suggested: Birds that are KOd (and Banner stunned) should have their passive abilities inactive until the effect wears off. This would reintroduce some needed strategy to the Arena meta.

[GrauGeist]

As I noted before, having all sets <<< Valiant really isn’t a problem. It’s not a problem for Trading Card Games, with a far stronger “chase” structure. It’s not like Valiant rarity >>>>> every other set item. Of course, TCGs have a much larger P2W component, but that’s the nature of the beast.

As @pointless reminded, having passives disabled when the bird or banner is Stunned would make for a huge difference in the meta. Being able to turn of Regen, TJ, Valiant by stunning the banner would make for some interesting effects, and bring out Stun items & teams that we don’t see very often.

[JJAtelier]

To be exact. Why not make the Pig Squire targetable and let it have its own respawn timer? At least this way the passive would be disabled like the same concept you guys have been discussing through these threads.

I get the whole chase system where one particular item only slightly breaks the balance of the game due to a certain dominant feature. But if developers continue to gradually increase the power curve with new features like pre nerfed Valiant. Then we’re making all the original old content become redundant. RnG is kind of a band aid to this power creep but I would rather they have a smaller delta of randomness if they wish to go this route.

65% still makes Valiant a plausible choice and mana shell opponents will make stun/cc/DoT comps next to unplayable if we ever want to see the whole passive/disable mechanic become a reality.

[GrauGeist]

Specifically targeting Valiant’s Pig Squire adds a 5th thing with a certain health value and respawn / stun timers. Stunning (and KO) to disable passives is a macro fix with much broader implications that targets Steel Wall, Perfect Balance, etc.

Pretty much all games increase the power curve over time. Epic did this in a huge way from Knight to Samurai & Paladin, for example. Or Mighty vs Valiant.

As for Mana, if you KO or Stun Chuck, it’d turn off like any other passive…

[datguygamer]

@vinnieb00 Making the squire pig targetable would make the Valiant weaker as people who wins the toss would immediately go after the pig and thus ruin the whole point of the Set Bonus in general. Not to mention, it adds another target on screen and makes the battle drag out even longer as birds attacking birds, banner, pig etc makes the battle hectic as all get out. The way they nerfed Valiant is acceptable as they just tweaked the percentage without making it too weak but what you suggest would make the Valiant useless.

[JJAtelier]

“As for Mana, if you KO or Stun Chuck, it’d turn off like any other passive…”

Isn’t guaranteed which is why I believe Mana is still an issue.

Knight alongside all the other starter classes are meant to be vanilla in nature. With such a basic power level, of course its going to increase with pre-existing content such as Paladin/Samurai. However, I’m specifically referring to future content outside of the original package, which has been a painstaking process to digest with the introduction of Valiant set/Enchantment system.

@datguygamer
I absolutely would not mind it getting that weak as a result. Not because I loathe it but because gameplay interaction contributes a whole lot to what should make Arena fun & competitive at the same time. You have to remember we have to spend a birds turn to kill that pig so at least that gives the opposing player a way to punish if we want to be that greedy and play the value game.

Heck I wouldn’t mind if they added a Freezing pig for the Frozen Hide set to give players a chance to target that pig from preventing the entire enemy birds from stunning you. This way you can at least attack/KO the Freezing Pig which adds a layer of strategy to your decision making.

All of this will definitely slow down the pace of the game…. which was quite tame to begin with when Arena was first introduced (mainly due to the dominance of Venomous/Cancer composition). In any case, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to further reduce the baseline of the set banners power level so we don’t get crazy fast games that we have now.

[GrauGeist]

Games aren’t that fast, at least, not that I’m seeing with both banners starting at 24,000 and birds with good defense.

Anyhow, I’m totally against making the Squire targetable. That’s just bad design when the Squire is already tied to the banner.

[Pointless]

Remember that Squire Pig is just a graphical representation of the Valiant Set. As such, there really is no reason at all he should be targetable, and adding this would completely change Arena mechanics (for the worse). What has been suggested in terms of disabling Banner/Bird passives would work for all sets and effects, and while this would also greatly change Arena, it would be a far more beneficial one in terms of both strategy and variability components in the game.

[JJAtelier]

I totally get that the Banner/Bird passive would be a fantastic change. I don’t quite understand what you guys mean by making things worst for having Pig Squire targetable, especially if it has the ability to respawn from KO (as prior mentioned). Concrete counter-play should be a main component when balancing the game. If the developers keep introducing or making tamed nerfs like adding RNG, then the competition is just gonna feel arbitrary.

Overall I think Arena is long overdue for a major overhaul in gameplay mechanics and I feel that Chimera/Rovio or whoever is behind the woodworks is simply not willing to take action.

[Pointless]

You are missing the point that targeting Squire would only be a counter Valiant measure. Now that is has been nerfed, and although still dominant, has been brought back in line with other Sets. Why introduce something that is so Set specific when a true counter for ALL sets could be feasible?

[JJAtelier]

If such effect is given that’s going to spike above the power curve, especially with a relatively high probability of it happening, then there needs to be a reasonable downside to playing that said banner. My idea for making the the Squire targetable is because it makes Valiant alot more interesting thematically as well as given opposing players a window of opportunity to interact against if they want to temporarily disable it and push for a possible advantage.

Now I could be calling bs in this case because no matter how we look at it. Nobodies going to even consider straying away from Valiant because its so unique & powerful at the same time. Akin to the power of Piloted Shredder from Hearthstone for the 4-mana slot.

I apologize if I’ve been a little snappy with my suggestions since I feel Arena needs a breath of fresh air and RnG shouldn’t be the only solution.

[Pointless]

As does our idea of disabling any passives from a KOd Bird or Stunned Banner. This would shake the meta in a positive way and preclude any specific Set targeting. Valiant is weak in areas, so if you are facing such opposition, exploit this. Even with the nerf, I have not lost a battle with my Bird configuration and Enchanted Valiant.

[JJAtelier]

“Even with the nerf, I have not lost a battle with my Bird configuration and Enchanted Valiant.”

It’s really hard to digest that statement since everything is maxed out on your end. Not everyone here who plays Epic has that luxury to spend which is why I feel there’s a slight discrepancy in how we see the power level in Arena since the majority of non-payers are probably facing obstacles where our opponents have a +200 advantage over us. At least from my end. Whereas you’re either facing equally 1500ish power or anyone lower (just to make an approximation).

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, have you ever thought about that you might have a unwieldy time empathizing with players that don’t have the power to leap to max level/enchantments and have a breeze like you do?

Just saying, no hard feelings.

[GrauGeist]

With the Shards I have banked, if I had spun up the right set items during the last 5x Rainbow Riot, I would be around 1500 power after enchanting them, and I’m F2P like most of us.

[JJAtelier]

@graugeist Well that’s interesting to know, though you’ve been around since the hard launch so for any newcomers that are starting out it’ll be like climbing a mountain.

[datguygamer]

@graugeist Hey, how many shards do you have now?

[GrauGeist]

I was very lazy for the first few months, and didn’t push on levels or stuff for a long time, which is why my Arena trophies look like this:
1. Stone
2. Silver
3. Platinum (I started playing about halfway through)
4. Diamond (I hit Diamond for the last 2 weeks)
5. Diamond (I hit Diamond ASAP).

When I started actually playing Arena, I was months behind the curve.

Where the newbies are hurt is missing the 5 class events, starting with Stone Guard. However, if they are diligent and plan, I think they can get a decent 10/10/10 Arena Power Team together fairly quickly, and build up from there.
____

@datguygamer – I’m sitting on 100+ Shards, just waiting for the right Set Items to arrive for Enchanting…

[Pointless]

@vinnieb00 I have spent a bare minimum once to avoid in game ads, the rest has been hard work, so don’t judge me based on what I have achieved playing since day one.
I have saved and spent my LCs wisely (or so I think) to field teams that are very competitive in Arena and enjoy this advantage. I feel I have that right over people who aren’t at my level simply because of the time I have invested in this game. Things are easier in Arena, but I know how to play against my opponents, which reach over 1600 sometimes.